Ignoring a biblical world view and the associated religious fervor that drives a lot of the Muslim hatred of Jes says to me that you're focusing on surface issues rather that addressing root cause. The Hamas organization is a terrorist organization that has refused to recognize Israel and is unabashed in doing everything in their power (supported by Iran) to wipe Israel and all jews off the face of the planet. They use innocents as human shields, cowards after starting a war. Who, in the history of the world, starts a war and hides behind women, children in underground tunnels underneath schools and hospitals...and somehow it's Isreal's fault? Hamas, leads a cowardly, armed invasion against unarmed citizens - kills, tortures, rapes, and pillages over 1000 Jews on October 7th. You're making the wrong argument and are on the wrong side of history. No surprise that you admittedly hate God and therefore have no ethical or moral foundation for your commentary.
I'm not ignoring that other people have a biblical world view, I'm saying that I wouldn't use one to build my rationale for, example, the existence of Israel, as I've seen some people do, because that's not what my belief is based on.
That you turn this into an attack on my ability to *have ethics* and can't listen to my commentary because I don't share your religious convictions is kind of illustrating the point.
I'm sorry. I hate writing things publicly for fear that I write something hurtful and that's really not my heart. So I apologize for questioning your moral and ethical foundation - that was a reach too far. I think a better way to express myself that may be less hurtful or attacking is that there is a moral high ground here and it should not be ignored. When a nation goes to war with another nation, it should not be a surprise that the attacked nation will retaliate. The fact that they stormed a country without declaring war, killed citizens - kids in a concert and undefended, unarmed residents in neighborhoods is cowardice. If you review what they did to these people - it was horrific. And then they defend themselves by hiding behind children. This is immoral, it's evil. They want to wipe Israel off the planet...they've been sending missiles over the border over the past two decades...which is why most Israeli's have bomb shelters in their homes. In my opinion - and doing my best to not read between the lines on your moral perspective - that there is no moral equivalency. Again - apologies for the personal attack.
I’m on the same page as you. The October attack on Israel was horrific. But the answer is not genocide of the Gaza population. Not only because it is equally wrong to innocent civilians, but pragmatically it doesn’t serve the interest of Israel. Israel has successfully turned moderates into anti Israeli voices. Arab voices that were live and let live with Israel are now full of hate for Israel. This did not need to happen. I love the Jewish people in my life. One can condemn the actions of the Israeli and Gaza governments and still care for the respective peoples. This conflict is not between the two peoples and their supporters. This is a conflict between those who value life and those who don’t value life. There is no excuse for killing civilians whoever the killers may be. No excuse.
And aethiests do not hate God. Obviously that is ridiculous. That’s like saying I really hate that cow who jumped over the moon. That cow does not exist. It would be difficult to hate it. But I will hate the actions of people who use that cow as a reason to commit atrocities. Morality has nothing to do with that cow.
Yes, exactly, I don't hate something I don't believe in. And I feel like I have an extremely strong ethical code; it's just based on other narratives than religious ones. But I really appreciated that Steve was able to step back and respond to my comment respectfully...i see that so rarely online.
Thank you for this, Elisa. The situation we find ourselves in is not just hard - it's confusing. And it's left me even more inarticulate than usual. (I, too, am a fan of Mohu's calm and empathy-filled threads. The more people who read him the better I hope we will be.)
Thank you for this. I too, am struggling with the fact that people can’t seem to hold multiple truths at the same time. It is hard to speak out for many when speaking out means you might hurt your Jewish friends. Or when supporting your Jewish friends reports of a rise in anti-Semitism makes it seem like you are supporting Israel’s actions to your Muslim and Arab friends. The truth is most people don’t have friends across the spectrum. And when we have homogenous friend groups, it means we don’t hold multiple peoples stories and lived experiences in our hearts. it makes it more difficult to have compassion and empathy, or understand the nuances of current events through the experiences of those most harmed by them. Thank you for giving me a space to put that. Sending you lots of love and continuing the work of trying to bring peace into the world.
Thank you, Nadine. What I also think is that as people begin to feel isolated or embattled and not seen or heard, they dig in; they shed empathy, and in essence, they radicalize. We are seeing it happen before our eyes.
That is very true. And concerning. Hate begets hate. I wish we saw leadership that showed us paths to love and compassion. Still feels very much like greed and religion are driving the bus when it comes to our politicians.
Sometimes my treatment plan for feeling an overall cynicism for government and politicians is to recommend getting involved in something locally. So many people involved in local politics get into it because they want to be *for* something; they have a passion. And they are not looking for it to just be a stepping stone to the national stage. There are lot of local pols in my area who have served in various ways locally for years without feeling the need to climb some ladder. They just really care about our mutual home. I like to think that most politicians really do get in it for the right reasons. Maybe I'm naive, it wouldn't be the first time 🤷🏻♀️
So true. I find now that the kids are grown and there’s no school community to support, I am craving something like this. Thanks for that idea. And lol at the “for” - in Canadian politics, though we have more than two parties, they are all more about voting against what they are NOT. Sigh. Anyway, great ideas for dealing with apathy and cynicism. Thank you
Ignoring a biblical world view and the associated religious fervor that drives a lot of the Muslim hatred of Jes says to me that you're focusing on surface issues rather that addressing root cause. The Hamas organization is a terrorist organization that has refused to recognize Israel and is unabashed in doing everything in their power (supported by Iran) to wipe Israel and all jews off the face of the planet. They use innocents as human shields, cowards after starting a war. Who, in the history of the world, starts a war and hides behind women, children in underground tunnels underneath schools and hospitals...and somehow it's Isreal's fault? Hamas, leads a cowardly, armed invasion against unarmed citizens - kills, tortures, rapes, and pillages over 1000 Jews on October 7th. You're making the wrong argument and are on the wrong side of history. No surprise that you admittedly hate God and therefore have no ethical or moral foundation for your commentary.
I'm not ignoring that other people have a biblical world view, I'm saying that I wouldn't use one to build my rationale for, example, the existence of Israel, as I've seen some people do, because that's not what my belief is based on.
That you turn this into an attack on my ability to *have ethics* and can't listen to my commentary because I don't share your religious convictions is kind of illustrating the point.
I'm sorry. I hate writing things publicly for fear that I write something hurtful and that's really not my heart. So I apologize for questioning your moral and ethical foundation - that was a reach too far. I think a better way to express myself that may be less hurtful or attacking is that there is a moral high ground here and it should not be ignored. When a nation goes to war with another nation, it should not be a surprise that the attacked nation will retaliate. The fact that they stormed a country without declaring war, killed citizens - kids in a concert and undefended, unarmed residents in neighborhoods is cowardice. If you review what they did to these people - it was horrific. And then they defend themselves by hiding behind children. This is immoral, it's evil. They want to wipe Israel off the planet...they've been sending missiles over the border over the past two decades...which is why most Israeli's have bomb shelters in their homes. In my opinion - and doing my best to not read between the lines on your moral perspective - that there is no moral equivalency. Again - apologies for the personal attack.
I appreciate you staying engaged in conversation with me, Steve. it is so rare to do what you just did.
I’m on the same page as you. The October attack on Israel was horrific. But the answer is not genocide of the Gaza population. Not only because it is equally wrong to innocent civilians, but pragmatically it doesn’t serve the interest of Israel. Israel has successfully turned moderates into anti Israeli voices. Arab voices that were live and let live with Israel are now full of hate for Israel. This did not need to happen. I love the Jewish people in my life. One can condemn the actions of the Israeli and Gaza governments and still care for the respective peoples. This conflict is not between the two peoples and their supporters. This is a conflict between those who value life and those who don’t value life. There is no excuse for killing civilians whoever the killers may be. No excuse.
And aethiests do not hate God. Obviously that is ridiculous. That’s like saying I really hate that cow who jumped over the moon. That cow does not exist. It would be difficult to hate it. But I will hate the actions of people who use that cow as a reason to commit atrocities. Morality has nothing to do with that cow.
Yes, exactly, I don't hate something I don't believe in. And I feel like I have an extremely strong ethical code; it's just based on other narratives than religious ones. But I really appreciated that Steve was able to step back and respond to my comment respectfully...i see that so rarely online.
Thank you for this, Elisa. The situation we find ourselves in is not just hard - it's confusing. And it's left me even more inarticulate than usual. (I, too, am a fan of Mohu's calm and empathy-filled threads. The more people who read him the better I hope we will be.)
Thanks xo
Thank you for this. I too, am struggling with the fact that people can’t seem to hold multiple truths at the same time. It is hard to speak out for many when speaking out means you might hurt your Jewish friends. Or when supporting your Jewish friends reports of a rise in anti-Semitism makes it seem like you are supporting Israel’s actions to your Muslim and Arab friends. The truth is most people don’t have friends across the spectrum. And when we have homogenous friend groups, it means we don’t hold multiple peoples stories and lived experiences in our hearts. it makes it more difficult to have compassion and empathy, or understand the nuances of current events through the experiences of those most harmed by them. Thank you for giving me a space to put that. Sending you lots of love and continuing the work of trying to bring peace into the world.
Thank you, Nadine. What I also think is that as people begin to feel isolated or embattled and not seen or heard, they dig in; they shed empathy, and in essence, they radicalize. We are seeing it happen before our eyes.
That is very true. And concerning. Hate begets hate. I wish we saw leadership that showed us paths to love and compassion. Still feels very much like greed and religion are driving the bus when it comes to our politicians.
Sometimes my treatment plan for feeling an overall cynicism for government and politicians is to recommend getting involved in something locally. So many people involved in local politics get into it because they want to be *for* something; they have a passion. And they are not looking for it to just be a stepping stone to the national stage. There are lot of local pols in my area who have served in various ways locally for years without feeling the need to climb some ladder. They just really care about our mutual home. I like to think that most politicians really do get in it for the right reasons. Maybe I'm naive, it wouldn't be the first time 🤷🏻♀️
So true. I find now that the kids are grown and there’s no school community to support, I am craving something like this. Thanks for that idea. And lol at the “for” - in Canadian politics, though we have more than two parties, they are all more about voting against what they are NOT. Sigh. Anyway, great ideas for dealing with apathy and cynicism. Thank you